Narcissism, Pt. 2 with Dr. Chuck DeGroat
The decline of empathy in conservative Christian settings
In this week’s episode of You Have Permission I welcome back Dr. Chuck DeGroat, a psychologist and expert on narcissism in religious settings to continue our conversation following our well-received episode from February 2025. This time, every question I asked him came from listeners of that first episode.
After summarizing our previous conversation on narcissism in the church, we discuss the recent theological and cultural trends that demonize empathy, particularly in conservative Christian circles. I describe clips of Christian podcast hosts describing empathy as something Christians should eliminate from their lives, with some even using jarring phrases like "the sin of empathy." I found this mind-boggling, as did Chuck.
He suggests that this anti-empathy rhetoric functions as "an apologetic for the apathy that so many have shown over the last 20, 25 years" in these circles. In other words, rather than admitting a failure of compassion, some leaders are reframing their lack of empathy as theologically virtuous.
Chuck articulates a crucial distinction that these critics seem to miss: the difference between undifferentiated empathy (where one loses themselves completely in another's emotional experience) and grounded, differentiated empathy (where one maintains healthy boundaries while connecting with others). These critics have constructed a caricature of empathy as a state where one becomes "utterly ungrounded" and tries to "care for everyone" but ends up caring for no one well. Chuck compares proper empathy to the lifeguard training he received as a teenager — you jump in to save someone, but you're trained to do so in a way that prevents you from being pulled under yourself.
Significantly, low empathy is one of the core diagnostic criteria for narcissism in the DSM. When religious communities begin valorizing a trait that is fundamentally associated with narcissism, it creates an environment where narcissistic leadership can flourish undetected or even be rewarded.
The majority of our conversation happens after the Patreon break. There, we get into empathy types, how to avoid hiring narcissistic leaders (Chuck shares a personal story of mentoring someone who later became an abusive leader), and whether it's possible to hold power in church without falling into narcissism. We also examine parallels between narcissistic family systems and church communities, and what individuals should do if they realize their church leader is narcissistic.
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